jonathan dough

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Posts by jonathan dough

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  28

  Does the WT warn against reading the Bible?

  by Hope4Others in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs
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  jonathan dough

  The point missed is that the NWT is not really a Bible as it has been modified to such a great extent.

  JD II
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  29

  What religion do X-JWs belong to now?

  by jonathan dough in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i get the feeling many x-jws are floating about aimlessly and don't join christendom, still living with the jw indoctrinated belief that they are all the work of the devil.

  does that make sense?

  are they supposed to sit around in small groups in their living rooms reading scripture like ray franz recommended in crisis of conscience?

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  jonathan dough

  Well, this has been a real eye-opener. Let me rephrase my original questions. Are most of you claiming that Christendom (Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox) is/are false religions? Do you now reject the notion that the Bible is the word of God? Do you still abide by its principles? The kingdom is larger than 2 or 3 people huddled around the coffee table. How can someone go from being a JW to being an atheist? Of course I agree, I think, for now, that membership in a particular "organization" is not required, but I could be wrong. But is Christendom false per se?

  JD II
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  29

  What religion do X-JWs belong to now?

  by jonathan dough in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i get the feeling many x-jws are floating about aimlessly and don't join christendom, still living with the jw indoctrinated belief that they are all the work of the devil.

  does that make sense?

  are they supposed to sit around in small groups in their living rooms reading scripture like ray franz recommended in crisis of conscience?

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  jonathan dough

  I get the feeling many x-jws are floating about aimlessly and don't join Christendom, still living with the JW indoctrinated belief that they are all the work of the Devil. Does that make sense? Are they supposed to sit around in small groups in their living rooms reading Scripture like Ray Franz recommended in Crisis of Conscience? Do they seek to form their own new religion?

  This is the way I see it: The harvest was to be great, it has been ongoing since at least Christ's first appearance. The kingdom began as a metaphoric seed and grows into a large bush or tree before the end times which are upon us, to be fully realized ultimately after the end times. Where is this bush or tree? It can't be the JWs, we can prove that 100%, but what does that leave us with? It has to be the Catholics, and/or Orthodox and/or any one of many Reformed Protestant denominations. And if that is true, then the Trinity must be true as it sits at the core of those faiths. Where is the true Christian church?

  JD II
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  105

  Does the name Jehovah actually exist in the original Hebrew language?

  by Yizuman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  source: http://www.familybible.org/articles/messianic/jehovah.htm.

  well, then, where did the word jehovah come from?.

  thus the artificial name jehovah came into being.. (yahweh, the new encyclopedia britannica, vol.

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  jonathan dough

  The bigger quesion is whether the tetragrammaton appears in the NT. Of all 5,000+ NT manuscripts it never appears once, which they concede in their Insight Books. JWs claim it was a grand conspiracy to remove it.
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  51

  Bible scholars/researchers: What is your favorite version of the Bible?

  by restrangled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i only have the nwt.

  i went to the bookstore and picked up the scofield study bible iii version of the niv.

  i have 2 weeks to return or exchange it.

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  jonathan dough

  NIV is a paraphrase. Careful there.

  I use several and compare. Trash the NWT. I use NAB because of their extensive study notes (the catholics are right on many things) the RSV and the ESV. Also, spend the money on an interlinear (Green's literal translation) but most importantly get an exhaustive concordance with definitions. I use Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with Vine's Greek and Hebrew dictionary. It is an essential key to understnding the bible but you must have a cross-referencing interlinear, Greek and Hebrew, to use it. Spend the money.

  JD II
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  123

  Clarifying the Trinity Doctrine

  by UnDisfellowshipped in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  since there is so much confusion among ex-jw's, jw's, and christians in general about exactly what the trinity doctrine is, i decided to post this to clarify this teaching.. the historical trinity doctrine of the christian (protestant and catholic) churches has always been this:.

  * there is only one true god by nature.. * there are three distinct persons who share equally the nature of god.. * there are not three different gods (that is the false doctrine of tritheism or polytheism).. * there is not one person who is revealed three different ways (that is the false doctrine of modalism).. * however, each person of the trinity does have his own "role" or "function.

  " the son willingly obeys the father.

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  jonathan dough

  Every answer to the JWs anti-Trinity arguments can be found here.The Jws are wrong about everything.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

  JDII
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  123

  Clarifying the Trinity Doctrine

  by UnDisfellowshipped in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  since there is so much confusion among ex-jw's, jw's, and christians in general about exactly what the trinity doctrine is, i decided to post this to clarify this teaching.. the historical trinity doctrine of the christian (protestant and catholic) churches has always been this:.

  * there is only one true god by nature.. * there are three distinct persons who share equally the nature of god.. * there are not three different gods (that is the false doctrine of tritheism or polytheism).. * there is not one person who is revealed three different ways (that is the false doctrine of modalism).. * however, each person of the trinity does have his own "role" or "function.

  " the son willingly obeys the father.

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  jonathan dough

  Dear Reniia:

  What I quoted was a brief summary and introduction to a 33,000 word treatise I just finished writing, with ample citation, on the Trinity doctrine, particularly with respect to the JW's denial of it. It is quite comprehensive and explains in detail most of your questions if you take the time to read it. If you are serious. At least read through the first two web pages. The Trinity doctrine is very logical and the only explanation that works; it is a necessary conclusion. After spending a good part of the last year full time researching this, trust me when I say that the JWs have completely deceived many, many people, including you. You will be making the biggest mistake of your life if you return to them.

  You can find it here: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

  With respect to the hypostatic union, remember, Christians believe in a soul that survives death. So the flesh dies, the soul survives, or think of the spirit that returns to God. It doesn't die. It is in that sense that Jesus the creature, the created humanity that is not God, dies, but God the Son lives on. You might also want to start reading another Bible. The NWT is so filled with errors it should not be called a Bible.The hypostatic union is not so far fetched. You also are a union of spirit and flesh.

  Regards,

  JDII

  [email protected]
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  22

  Summary of JW Beliefs

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  many jws are unfamiliar with the jw's beliefs.

  after considerable research i have discovered the following.. .

  the jehovahs witnesses believe that only 144,000 people go to heaven (reasoning from the scriptures (reasoning) [new york, watchtower bible and tract society, 1985], 166).

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  jonathan dough

  I'm no relation to the other John Doe. Does anyone have a copy of that 1995 article? I'd like to keep it as accurate as possible.

  JDII
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  22

  Summary of JW Beliefs

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  many jws are unfamiliar with the jw's beliefs.

  after considerable research i have discovered the following.. .

  the jehovahs witnesses believe that only 144,000 people go to heaven (reasoning from the scriptures (reasoning) [new york, watchtower bible and tract society, 1985], 166).

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  jonathan dough

  Many JWs are unfamiliar with the JW's beliefs. After considerable research I have discovered the following.

  The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only 144,000 people go to heaven (Reasoning from the Scriptures (Reasoning) [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985], 166). They are the bride of Christ, God’s children, the elect, and often referred to as the “anointed” of Christ (Insight on the Scriptures (Insight), 2 vols. [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1988], 786). The New Testament Greek Scriptures (New Testament) were written primarily to, and for the benefit of, these brothers of Christ. They are specially chosen because they live especially good lives while on earth (Insight, 786-788). Once resurrected to heaven, a process which began in 1918 and will soon be concluded (the first resurrection) (Revelation - Its Grand Climax at Hand (Revelation Climax), [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 19__] 103, 277) they will become a kingdom of priests and kings who will rule with Christ for one thousand years over humans on earth (Insight, 170, 524, 525).
  
  This reign will involve their judging resurrected humans during the thousand year reign, and after the thousand year reign when resurrected mankind will undergo a final decisive test before being destroyed forever or having their names written permanently in God’s book, or scroll, of life (Insight, 251, 788). Whereas the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven as spirit creatures, all other billions of humans worthy of the resurrection during the thousand year reign will be resurrected as corrupt flesh and blood humans with the possibility of immortality on earth (Reasoning, 333-336; Insight, 251). During the thousand year reign the Great Crowd will engage in “perfecting” resurrected humans to a sinless condition enjoyed by Adam and Eve before the fall (Reasoning, 337, 338).
  
  The Great Crowd (or large multitude) is a term found at Revelation 7:9. The Great Crowd are those Jehovah’s Witnesses who survive the Great Tribulation. They do not die, do not need to be resurrected and are declared righteous through faith (Insight, 788) although it appears as though they also must pass a final, decisive test to gain eternal life (Insight., 251). Most Jehovah’s Witnesses today consider themselves to be members of the Great Crowd and according to their interpretation of Revelation 7:9-17 they will always be earthly, not heavenly, subjects of the kingdom of heaven (or kingdom of God). As to those Jehovah’s Witnesses who are not of the 144,000 and do not survive the Great Tribulation, it is believed they will be resurrected in God’s due time (Insight, 788).

  The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when Jesus Christ died and rose to heaven to sit on God’s throne he began to reign only as king over his congregation of 144,000 followers who at the time were still earthly subjects of this spiritual kingdom (Insight, 524). This rule began with Christ’s blood sacrifice which was initiated pursuant to the much-anticipated New Covenant which replaced the old Mosaic Law covenant (Law covenant). This New Covenant, to which only God, Christ and the 144,000 are parties, will expire shortly after the last of the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven (Insight, 524). The only people who have their sins forgiven through Christ's blood sacrifice from the time of Adam until the beginning of the thousand year reign are the 144,000 (Insight, 736).

  The real kingdom of God, a much larger, expansive and lengthier kingdom, began in 1914 (the 1914 kingdom) when Christ supposedly sat on the throne to begin his rule over mankind (Insight, 169). Jesus, being a mere angel (Reasoning, 218) created hundreds of millions of years ago, only receives a subsidiary share of this kingdom of God (Insight, 169). 1914 A.D. is arguably the most important date in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ belief system because it is the year that Jesus returned, or arrived (Great Man, ch. 133, 2; Reasoning, 344), to earth. This was the invisible Second Coming of Christ, or “parousia.” It also heralded the beginning of the first of three judgment days.

  We are currently in the first judgment day period. Under the guidance of the remaining earthly anointed 144,000, the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses are today separating the earth’s sheep and goats through their door-to-door ministry (The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived) (Great Man) [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1991] chapter 111, 12-15). The sheep join God’s one and only earthly organization, thus becoming members of the Great Crowd (if they survive the Great Tribulation) and earn the opportunity to live life everlasting; all the goats, those who do not heed their invitation, will be destroyed forever during the Great Tribulation and Armageddon with no prospect of resurrection (Ibid.).

  The only humans who survive the Great Tribulation and Armageddon, where all the enemies of God are destroyed, are members of the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses (Ibid.); no one else. Then begins the thousand year reign of Christ and the 144,000 over the earth’s Great Crowd and the righteous and unrighteous - at least those who merit the resurrection during the thousand years (Reasoning, 339-340). This general resurrection during the millennium is the second resurrection according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. One of the tasks of the Great Crowd during this peaceful thousand year reign is to restore post-apocalyptic earth to a paradise-like condition. The Great Crowd also assists in educating the 20 billion resurrected dead to the will of God, to get to know Jesus, and to live in accordance with new laws and regulations revealed through the Law Scrolls of God opened at Revelation 20:12 (Insight, 788). The purpose of educating the resurrected is to lift them to a state of perfection on par with Adam and Eve’s sinless state of perfection they enjoyed before rebelling against Jehovah God (Ibid.).

  The second judgment day period occurs during the thousand year reign. “Perfected” humans, now only corruptible rather than corrupt when resurrected, are tested and judged based not on their deeds and works in their previous lives (the one we experience today) but on their deeds during the thousand year reign (Ibid.). They believe this because all men are allegedly acquitted of sin in this life and pay for their sins with the wages of death (Insight, 788; Reasoning, 338). Therefore, the only deeds or sins for which they can be put on judgment for are those committed during the thousand year reign, and their conduct during the final test after the thousand years.

  The final test of their fidelity begins after the thousand year reign, the third judgment day, when those remaining perfected humans are confronted with the unleashing of Satan from the abyss and all which that entails. If they pass the test successfully they will have their names permanently written in the scroll, or book, of life. If they fail they are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second Death, that is, eternal destruction (Insight, 251).

  Thereafter, the services of Christ, the angel, are no longer required. He is no longer needed as a helper in terms of a propitiatory sacrifice, nor as a legal intermediary between God and man. Accordingly, he is dispensed with in this regard (Insight, 170).

  For the skeptics, this is substantiated in further detail right here:

  http://www.144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html

  Regards,

  JD

  [email protected]
• 
  123

  Clarifying the Trinity Doctrine

  by UnDisfellowshipped in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  since there is so much confusion among ex-jw's, jw's, and christians in general about exactly what the trinity doctrine is, i decided to post this to clarify this teaching.. the historical trinity doctrine of the christian (protestant and catholic) churches has always been this:.

  * there is only one true god by nature.. * there are three distinct persons who share equally the nature of god.. * there are not three different gods (that is the false doctrine of tritheism or polytheism).. * there is not one person who is revealed three different ways (that is the false doctrine of modalism).. * however, each person of the trinity does have his own "role" or "function.

  " the son willingly obeys the father.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  jonathan dough

  Even on this thread I detect a lot of misunderstaning of the Trinity doctrine. It is not as difficult as one might think. More importantly, it is necessary, and the only conclusion one can draw from Scripture.

  Three of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ false teachings are particularly misleading and form the core vehicle for the dissemination of gross distortions.
  
  First, they do not understand that a "Person" is not a material human being like you or I. Persons of the Trinity are spirit. Secondly, they do not understand that God is "three" in one sense, and "one" in a completey different sense. And third, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unwilling or unable to acknowledge or grasp the concept of the hypostatic union, the union that is the God-man Jesus, who is fully God the Son and fully man, a divine Person who assumed a human nature. Intertwined with this concept is the often ignored principle that the created humanity of Jesus is not God. Accordingly, Jesus, the man in the God-man equation, could pray to His Father and acknowledge His Father’s superiority without committing any doctrinal contradictions. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, teach that the incarnate Jesus was nothing more or less than a man.

  At the outset it is crucial to understand two key concepts. You must distinguish between immanent Trinity (theological Trinity) and economic trinity, and understand how they relate to each other. This is not difficult. The Jehovah's Witnesses fail to separate them and erroneously combine the two concepts. This error lies at the root of the Jehovah's Witnesses’ harsh attacks on the Trinity and allows them to get away with distorting Trinitarian teaching. It is the means by which they are able to convince many people, who otherwise would know better, that the Trinity is utterly illogical and false when it is true and reasonable, even if certain aspects are grounded upon a measure of faith.

  Immanent (theological) Trinitarianism, refers to the essence of God the Almighty, his hypostatic three-fold nature and his absolute and perfect being, before creation. It deals with the “infinite, blessed communion of the divine Persons among themselves, without reference to creation,” (B. Brobrinskoy, The Mystery of the Trinity [New York, St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1999], 2, 3) (Mystery). It is the triune God as he is in himself (J. Moltmann, The Trinity and the Kingdom of God [Munich, Germany, SCM Press, Ltd., 1981], 151) (Trinity and the Kingdom).

  This should not be confused with economic Trinitarianism (God for us), the concerted activity of the three Persons in creation as they “maintain and restore the created world to a state of well-being and communion with God” (ibid., 2). “Economic” refers to “divine management of earthly affairs” (The Encyclopedia of Religion [New York, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1987], 54) (Encyclopedia of Religion). “It is oriented to the concrete history of creation and redemption: God initiates a covenant with Israel, God speaks through the prophets, God takes on flesh in Christ, God dwells within as Spirit” (ibid., 54). It is also called revelatory Trinity because the triune God reveals himself through his dispensation of salvation (Trinity and the Kingdom, 151).

  Accordingly, much Trinitarian theological discussions about the “One God in three Persons” deals with immanent Trinity, not economic Trinity. The economic aspect of the Trinity includes the created humanity of Jesus, who was not God (The New Catholic Encyclopedia [Washington D.C., The Catholic University of America, 1967], 943) (Catholic Encyclopedia) and not part of the immanent Trinity. But that is precisely where the Jehovah's Witnesses mistakenly inject him resulting in a great deal of unnecessary confusion.

  They argue, to take one illustration, that Jesus could not be God yet be with God; and he could not be the Father whom he prayed to (Should You Believe in the Trinity? [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1989; http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm], Chapter 7) (Should You Believe). But this is a classic example of the Jehovah’s Witnesses mixing apples and oranges. The man of the God-man Jesus, the created humanity who was not God (Catholic Encyclopedia, 943), could rightfully pray to God the Father and did regard himself as inferior; this He performed in the context of economic Trinity.

  The idea that the preexistent Word (God the Son) was with God stems from John 1:1:

  In the beginning was the Word,
  And the Word was with God,
  And the Word was God.

  Even though John 1:1 speaks in the context of pre-creation immanent Trinity, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have swapped out God the Son, the preexistent Word, with the created humanity of Jesus. This is not accurate Bible teaching nor does it properly reflect the doctrine of the Trinity. John 1:1 does not claim to say that the created humanity of Jesus was God or was with God in the beginning.

  If you keep this distinction in mind you will be in a much better position to navigate the Jehovah's Witnesses’ maze of misleading tactics and come to a better understanding of what the Trinity doctrine actually means.

  A detailed analysis of the Trinity in light of JW false teachings can be found here:

  http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

  JD

  [email protected]